It’s about time we started having a public discussion about how far we should go in killing our economy, our livelihoods, and our financial and societal stability.
MADISON – Republican leaders of the state Legislature are asking Gov. Tony Evers not to place any further restrictions on Wisconsin residents’ ability to spend money, warning of an economic collapse.
Evers has ordered the closure of schools, bars, restaurants, hair salons and limited gatherings to 10 people or fewer to lessen the chance that the coronavirus spreads like wildfire throughout the state, endangering thousands of lives.
Other states, including Illinois and California, have gone further and codified advice by ordering all of their residents to stay in their homes — a measure Evers has said, for now, he isn’t taking.
Senate leaders Scott Fitzgerald of Juneau and Roger Roth of Appleton and Assembly leaders Robin Vos of Rochester and Jim Steineke of Kaukauna said Saturday they agree with the governor’s position, saying more restrictions are unnecessary in Wisconsin.
“The consequences felt by citizens and small businesses around the state has already been tremendous,” the lawmakers said in a statement. “As we move forward together in this fight to defeat the virus, we must keep in mind that the people we serve need the jobs they have today to help weather this storm. Continued economic activity will not only help us in our fight against this virus today, it will also ensure that we don’t have to fight to recover from economic collapse tomorrow.”
Emphasis mine.
Liberal democrat governors are acting like dictators, but worse. While they are not killing people in concentration camps, they are acting like some of the worst dictators around, like Kim in North Korea, minus the deaths.
I think it is already too late.
My estimate of damage in restaurant industry is: 20-30% of all restaurant units will not survive on other side. Independents are being especially hard hit. Sit down chains with no drive-thru and low ability to carry out will be disproportionately hit as well.
These are people with their life savings, heavy debt load, and their sweat equity being wiped away. There is a tremendous human cost to that on many levels. Many on liberal side are blind to the problem.
Definitely a case where “cure” is more damaging than the Chinese virus.
Communists destroy on so many levels. Makes you wonder why 100% of people would not renounce evil communists like Xi.
That letter is just going to ensure Evers locks Wisconsin down no later than Monday afternoon.
Just a couple of examples from 27th St. near me of the pain for local restaurants:
– Melrose, which up until PlaceboCare had been a 24-hour restaurant and since transitioned to a breakfast/lunch restaurant, hard-shut on Tuesday, even turning off its electronic sign.
– Milwaukee Burger Company, which tried take-out, including take-out growlers of beer, hard-shut after Friday.
– Oscar’s, which does have a drive-through to go along with pretty good and reasonable burgers (under $5.50 for a half-pound patty melt, the most-expensive burger on the menu) and great shakes, was not at all busy about 7 last night, while Wendy’s drive-through was packed.
– Benny’s Cafe, which does have a drive-up window left over from the previous tenant (McDonald’s), is still trying to make a go of it.
Great pro-life explanation, Kevin. Dilly Bars over Grandma. And you blamed the liberals, too.
This is just the WisGOP knowing fully well that there will need to be greater shelter-in-place, and they just wanted to be able to say “but we asked him nicely and he didn’t listen.”
jjf, of the states that have put on a whole statewide shelter in place, all have Democrat governors. That is fact.
And Wisconsin has only 295 cases out of about 5 million people with the vast majority of counties have 1 or 0 people diagnosed.
It is the height of irresponsibility for Evers to close down the entire state.
But you obviously support liberal tyrants and this is the liberal’s wet dream to gave authoritarian dictators complete control over every business in the State. That’s why you favorite dictator is Hugo Chavez.
So what’s YOUR capital investment in your biz, Jiffy? Two laptops and a desktop? 29 programming-language manuals? A printer, speakers, router, and a bunch of external memory devices………about $4K total, eh?
Oh…….and when your clientele goes BK and stiffs you for your fees, Jiffster, don’t count on drowning your sorrows in a tavern. They’re all BK and out of biz.
Granny can self-quarantine, Jiffy. Ever think of that?
I’m not attempting to argue with anyone about this but am interested in opinions as to what action should be taken federally, state, and local.
Pat, if quarantines do have to be put in place, make spot specific instead of statewide. Dane County seems to have the most cases, both percentage wide and by number. If you decide to quarantine Dane County and not Green or Taylor. And let their businesses to stay open.
On the Federal level, make supplies available, allow the military to set up hospitals. Keep on investigating and experimenting new drugs and tests and fast track them.
Local level: keep on monitoring the situations and put local restrictions in place if it is warranted.
And for all 3vlevels, don’t panic and don’t play politics.
Jjf,
So what happens to my 65 employees I can’t afford to pay if we shut down?
Every restaurant is facing that decision right now. With Amazon, Roundys and grocery stores hiring, you think restaurants will be able to pick that staff back up after the tyramny ends? Of course not. They are dead even if they have the finances to start back up. Many of these otganizations will not have the staff to gear back up….and if they have to hire new, the cost of that is crazy.
Why is drive-thru and dilly bars such an issue when all these massive bureaucratic organizations in madison still meet? What about Costco? Walmart? Those certainly present much more risk….yet nothing but a kick restaurants in teeth attitude from you.
You are reprehensible and evil in your picking and choosing liberal tyranny.
There are at least 5 businesses in my town I am scared will not reopen. From childcare to hair salons. Awful. Just awful.
What happens to your business if most of your employees get the ‘Rona?
What happens to your business if you die from it? If you’re in the hospital for a few weeks?
What’s the difference between Costco and DQ? What do you touch at either place?
https://covidactnow.org/state/WI
Try reading some different information, not the media hype. Only 1 side is being brought out by media and the facts on both sides need to be looked at.
Sure, Dad29, I’ll give a detailed explanation of my cash and capital positions to any random person on the Internets who isn’t even brave enough to reveal his real name.
Last time I counted how many computers I owned was in the 80s, and that was 30 or so, and it’s much larger now.
I’ll keep helping my clients as best I can. More remote work, that’s all. They’ve been good about paying me. My costs are low, everything’s paid for long ago, I’m good. They’ll pay me later, if necessary. I like what I do.
But feel free to tell me all about your plan.
Mar, your point is lame – our largest population centers tend to run away from the GOP. Why’s that?
jjf, maybe they are idiots. They were stupid enough to get the illness so maybe they deserve to be isolated.
Mar, I guess you hate America, huh?
Wonderful sentiment, mar. You certainly are a hateful and arrogant piece of work. That is odd for someone so highly educated .
…quarantine the MOST at-risk people.
Yup, you’re good. So screw all those others who have million-dollar mortgage debt, several thousand/month equipment leases, and 20-75 employees. After all, they can work “remote” just like you. If they can’t, screw ’em. Let them starve b/c no Dilly Bars.
Nice, Jiffy.
And by the way, “30” computers isn’t impressive. Those 8K-bit chips….well…..
If you decide to quarantine, quarantine only those who have symptoms.
Dad29, so you’d be happier if I was screwed, right? You have a better plan for balancing everyone’s health against the economy? Step right up.
Million-dollar mortgages? As you and yours have said about the poors before, I would guess, maybe they should’ve planned for the future, maybe bought fewer iPhones and jewelry and big flat-panel TVs and cable.
Yes, Dilly Bars are extra. Not essential. Nor is dining out. Nor is a bar. Sad but true. Grocery stores, more essential.
And these days, yes, IT seems essential, doesn’t it? In 2008 I was worried for a while, too, but as it turned out, businesses needed to do more with less, so my business was still good.
jjf,
What happens if I get regular flu?
What happens if it goes around the staff?
We let people off.
What happens if I get hit by a bus?
Business owners face everyday risk. When government shuts you down, that is business death, most of time, bankruptcy. What if staff are depressed from losing the job that they like? Suicides from that forced shut downs don’t count in the liberal tyrant risk equation?
Grocery Stores feed people, we feed people. Dilly bars are just part of menu, not the only thing on menu you disingenuous twirp. My drive-thru is much safer right now than face to face grocery stores were people congregate heavily like Costco. So don’t lecture me about risk when you are inconsistent and reprehensible.
You tell ’em, Kev! You’re the boss! You know this virus is just a hoax! Tell ’em they better show up for work so they can catch it from the public and their work buds! And you never explained what sort of health care they get. Or had, I should say.
jjf,
20-30K people in U.S., die from flu every year. Far more than COVId 19 will do.
We should destroy economy in same way?
Why not both, Kev? It’s not a zero-sum game, and because one problem exists, doesn’t mean another won’t matter if you add it to the pile? You think this virus is like the flu? You want to bet another Dilly Bar that more people will die from COVID before the end of 2020 than from the flu?
But hey you’re pro-life.
I’ll take that bet,jjf.
So, 3very year you are proposing we go into martial for flu?
jjf, aren’t you one of those chicken littles who bought a bomb silo to protect yourself when there emergencies, real or imagined?
Jjf,
Because people would starbe if we did this everytime!
We would be liberal cesspool Venezuela.
….but that is what you really want, don’t you?
Bet is on!
“ Try reading some different information, not the media hype.”
Sled Dawg,
Please share where the different information is. What specific should we read.
You don’t know much about the restaurant biz, do you, Jiffy?
One can take on a million-dollar mortgage just to buy the building and grounds for a mid- to large- establishment.
You maintain that forcing economic calamity on the proprietors and employees of restaurants, bars, barbershops/salons, child-care centers, (etc.) is just fine and dandy……..just to Save One Life. That’s your stand?
Did you guys hear that Rand Paul tested positive for the Democratic Hoax?
Pat, who said the illness is a hoax?
The mass hysteria herd mentality is a hoax.
Bunch of chicken little snowflake soccer moms panicking about an illness that is not as bad as the sky is falling crowd makes it out to be.
Mar,
Trump said it was the Democrats new hoax.
Pat,
He said the liberal media action in relation to Covid-19 was a hoax, not the virus.
Your out of context nonsense is awful. Just awful.
Get a clue.
“During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats’ criticism of his administration’s response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying “this is their new hoax.” During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.”
Per Snopes
Trump called referencing it as, “their new hoax”.
LeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeRoy gets his news from Biden commercials. Maybe some day he’ll step up to National Pandering Radio…..
Meantime, even Politifact called that Biden ad “FALSE”
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/15/joe-biden/ad-watch-biden-video-twists-trumps-words-coronavir/
Pat, Nord,
He saying media action to his administration, not Covid.
You both are awful to construe it otherwise.
The liberal media has nearly always been awful, but you ignore that.
Either way, it’s getting closer to April and the virus will miraculously go away.
Hard to take either of you seriously when you cannot be honest on simple things…even radical left wing politifact knocked that tripe down.
No Pat, it will go away come November, just before the elections.
Pat, the cases are nearly at zero.
No k, here is exactly what he said:
“During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats’ criticism of his administration’s response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying “this is their new hoax.” During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.”
Who is being dishonest here?
https://youtu.be/HImj__5VoiM
Nord,
You quoted someone being totally dishonest describing Trump, not Trump.
You continue to be awful. Just awful.
“this is their new hoax.” That is a quote from trump.
Nord
Severely and dishonestly out of context.
But you thrive on dishonesty…we all know that.
“It is all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax.”
Nord,
He’s talking about media.
Why do you act like the biggest Gump in WI on simple things?
Why, Kevin? Because the facts are ALWAYS against him.
I see Leroy is suckling at AOC’s teet. Guess what, even CNN’s Jake Tapper is saying that AOC was factually incorrect when she said that Trump called it a hoax.
>”I thought about it, because the president did not call the virus a hoax,” Tapper tweeted.
Dumb Leroy.
We have to come conclusion that this is a case of foaming Trump derangement syndrome.
Main sympton is drooling awful liberal media lies even when truth is in front of them
Herr nEvers requests your cooperation for the Vaterland.
https://publichealthmdc.com/coronavirus/report-a-mass-gathering-covid-19?fbclid=IwAR3anuQL75on8x0mmpbC0HhvXX9tsh23OKxiOl1CopSHdYWs4ZSd6CP8QN0
Oh Pathological Liar Le Roi, you just lost another round, remaining perfect in never winning a debate.
Maybe if actually studied an issue instead of relying Rachel Maddow NPR,and other liberal media, use your 2 brain cells and actually think for yourself. It might increase your brain cells to 3 brain cells.
Sorry MjM, that’s Dane County.
As for the “hoax” interpretation, it requires you to suspend your faculties in exactly the way Trump likes you to. In the same way you think he’s great at owning the Libs. In the same way you think he’s talking like a common man. In the same way he likes to rile up the rally.
So square his hoax statement with his statement that the number of cases will soon be zero. He’s doing a great job, right, he’s a smart guy, he’s got this all figured out? It’s perfect, it’s under control?
Saw a post on a Madison forum the other day, a guy was looking for someone who speaks Mandarin because he’s trying to scrounge up masks for a Janesville hospital that’s about to run out. But let’s make fun of higher education and someone who had a Mandarin major, they’ll be making french fries, business doesn’t need that.
All the hospital beds in WI are expected to be full a month from now.
https://covidactnow.org/state/WI
Jjf,
Did Joe Biden craft that post for you?
It made as much sense as licking yogurt on a toilet seat in the hot sun.
DMOTP Jiffy sez: ” that’s Dane County.”
Yes, and Goring’s Geheime Staatspolizei was founded in the German territory of Prussia before being swallowed into the SS. Sieg! Soldat Jiffy!
DMOTP claims: ” it requires you to suspend your faculties”
Or perhaps the inability to comprehend beyond a single sentence and wallow in preconceptions is that which causes one to dim-wittingly regurgitate falsehoods and lies. Patsy, Nortumous, and you are the perfect examples, as we have seen consistently.
It is rather humorous, though. On one hand you commies lable Trump an all-around idiot and yet on the other proclaim he is a genius of psychological manipulation.
Quite amusing to watch ya’ll run around in circles ad infinitum.
And what’s this about a mask shortage?
Hey, I’m no political operative or conservative blog operator, I don’t get daily email blasts about what to think.
But tell me how it’s wrong, Mr. Dilly. The Orange One is doing a great job, perfect some say. People are talking, they say it’s perfect.
Go for it, MjM, dig deep, blame Obama if you must (because that’s what The Orange Leader always does), figure out where the masks come from, figure out why the hospitals didn’t stockpile, figure out whether we’re going to have enough – because that’s one of the things we need to fight this.
“ On one hand you commies lable Trump an all-around idiot and yet on the other proclaim he is a genius of psychological manipulation.”
No, I’ve never proclaimed Trump a genius of psychological manipulation. All-around idiot, yes.
Do bloggers get a daily email blast about talking points to use?
Influenza A and B:
CV19:
I would treat it like we have treated past flu-like ‘pandemics’, none of which included much more than banning travel to infected countries.
Stress is considered by many medical professionals (including epidemiologists) to be a highly significant factor in vulnerability to almost all communicable illnesses. I think the crash or even just the severe strain on the US economy by all of the restrictions to it will cause as much illness as it prevents. The regular flu deaths are much higher this year. I would bet fear and stress are major contributors.
If the lack of blood in hospitals, the genuine fear felt by most who have the sniffles or ‘just the regular flu’, and the unavailability of the medical profession (my 3/26 Dr appointment made in January was cancelled by the doctor) unless you are believed to have CV19, even the suicide rate increase (not the full rate, just the increase % Feb to May); all of these factors and dozens more being caused by this shutdown will vastly outweigh the number deaths these steps will have saved, imo.
And here is my favorite, if the conspiracy theorists have even a grain of truth to them, that any of the four specialty flu based scares that came from China has been some sort of germ warfare, the Chinese are ecstatic with their success on this one. China or Russia or any other group can potentially severely harm our economy with a well placed virus. Germ warfare is not about killing the weakest and elderly enemy citizens, it is about stifling the enemy economy.
You get your medical professions on it, you control traffic to and from highly contagious areas and let life go on.
You asked.
So Tuerqas, it seems the health professionals disagree with you. Why?
Do they disagree that this isn’t the same as the flu, that it spreads more easily than the flu, that it’s spreading from people who don’t know they have it? Are they concerned that it’ll spread in true pandemic style, with an exponential blast through the population, that this virus causes more need for hospitalization, that it’ll overwhelm the hospitals?
Here’s the CDC’s page on the flu. This season, overall cumulative hospitalization rate was 65.1 per 100,000. Better than 2017, worse than many other years. Death rate, 7.1%. And that’s for a disease with a vaccine.
FWIW, China’s hospitalization rate was 15%, 5% went to ICU. In Italy, more than half went to hospital, 10% to ICU. So if we’re conservative at 5%, we run out of hospital beds and masks when, according to your research?
MjM, you’re right about spotting the “genius one minute, idiot the next” model of propaganda. It was used for Obama, it’s being used for Biden. Does it work? Why does it make sense or not make sense?
Could Trump be a master of verbal manipulation and intimidation and an idiot in other respects?
DMOTP Jiffy squeaks: ” dig deep”
You are doing a nice job of that all by yerself: just ignore the six-year long failure, on the subject you brought up, by your incompetent idol Obozo because it’s easier to ape “Trump’sFault!Trump’sFault!Trump’sFault!”
Keep shoveling, Jiffy. You are on course for some of that bat soup.
DMOTP Jiffy proves himself DMOTP: “figure out why the hospitals didn’t stockpile”
Why oh WHY aren’t there 350 million hospital beds in the USA because without em WE ALL GONNA DIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
Question: How many A(H1N1)pdm09 infections occurred in WI in the 2018-2019 flu season?
I thought Obozo fixed all that.
Golly, MjM, you’d think Trump could’ve fixed it all on day one. He said he would. What’s he been doing all this time he’s been in office, golfing or gloating?
Dig deep, try to understand why there’s no stockpiles. Why do hospitals run on thin margins?
I already linked to the CDC’s page about the flu. Click a link or two, you’ll see the graphs.
But Trump can’t stop lying, can he?
Trump can’t stop lying? Come on Le Roi, errr, jjf, when I asked you what Trump lie of say was, you couldn’t respond.
Why do hospitals run on thin margins, oh, I don’t know, all the free care they give out, the poor Medicare reimbursement rate, government regulations, high cost of staff?
Why indeed, the infodemic has struck. The biggest reason there was extra caution on the first three specialized flu viruses was because the vaccine was not designed for those strains, just like this one. The others all hit the US just like this one. Why is it being treated so differently? Influenza B has almost as slow of an incubation period, that is why it usually hits later than Influenza A every year.
Around 250,000 cases have been confirmed since its discovery in November of 2019, not even enough to call an epidemic, much less a pandemic except in the broadest terms. I would expect a dangerous pandemic to get to at least 1/10% of the population. So far CV19 hasn’t reached 100,000th of one percent.
Why indeed is this one being treated so differently than the first 3 designer flu viruses? It has not shown itself to be particularly deadly with a death rate approx 2.3%, higher in the elderly population and lower in younger age brackets, just like the regular flu.
Their guess that it spreads more rapidly is just that, a guess. In fact, with a longer incubation time it has proven itself to spread less rapidly. When the flu hit for the first time as a pandemic in the late 1880s, it spread like wildfire and reached peak mortality in 5 weeks, (over a million dead out of a billion at the time) . We are still preparing for this phantom wildfire spread of CV19 5 months after being discovered and it is acting much more like the other designer flus from China than the original flu.
Why? Doctors have been trained to cover all bases to avoid lawsuits today, the largest single reason for our spiralled medical costs. No doctor is going to go on record as saying this is not as dangerous as the standard flu, but I would gladly bet that CV19 won’t reach half the death rate of flu A&B. Politicians are trained to grab power at all costs as often as possible and gaining it through fear has become the easiest way to make the greatest gains in the smallest amount of time. This is also an election year, hopefully, nuff said on that topic. There are your 2 largest whys, imo.
Tuerqas, the other obvious reason in the US is President Trump. They don’t want him to succeed.
Our Pathological Liar Le Roi is hoping for massive amount of deaths. jjf and Le Roi want dictator states with the strictest martial because they hope Trump gets blame.
The Democrats are playing games in Congress. The longer they play, the worse the economy.
The media is playing up people’s fears and trashing Trump.
The liberals and Democrats want the most deaths and worst economy just to hurt President Trump.
Oh! Designer flu! Conspiracy much? Tell us more!
mar:
You are one sick and petty guy.
Pathological Liar, you have said you want more people dead. You said that the drug President Trump likes is a hoax drug and not approved. You don’t want people taking this drug even it has helped many, many people.
Face it Le Roi, you want the bodies to pile up.
Don’t worry, Mar, those drugs are in short supply, too.
Maybe the AFP WI ads can include the phrase “acceptable number of deaths.”
mar:
Here you go, but remember this is a little out of date. With all the bs he has spewed in the last couple weeks about the virus the total will be higher. Enjoy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/01/20/president-trump-made-16241-false-or-misleading-claims-his-first-three-years/
Well, jjf, you must be celebrating today. The Wisconsin economy will be wrecked, people will die. And you will blame it on President Trump.
Happy days for you and Le Roi.
Mar, you know, my uncle was a great person. He was at MIT. He taught at MIT for, I think, like a record number of years. He was a great super genius. I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it. Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this? ‘ Maybe I have a natural ability.
mar:
“you have said you want more people dead” No, I did not.
“You said that the drug President Trump likes is a hoax drug and not approved” No I did not. What I did say was that the drugs trump was touting were not FDA approved for treating corona virus. As Fauci has said several times, anecdotal evidence isn’t proof that it works.
FWIW: One of the drugs trump is pushing is used to treat RA (and malaria). I take 2 a day to treat my advanced RA, and am concerned that folks who can actually benefit from it will be unable to get it if it is going to have the same fate as toilet paper.
well, jjf, I think I am pretty smart having spent decades on the front line of medicine and I get that Evers and the rest of the Democrats are doing these for political. I understand that some places like NYC might have to be quarantined because everyone is so close to another.
But to shut down an entire state is at best stupid but at worst political.
You may inherited your uncle’s intelligence but you lack common sense.
Le ROI, there’s no helping a Pathogical Liar.
You said it. You own it.
And you want people to die and have a ruined economy.
No mar, I didn’t. And you can’t show where and when I did. I sure don’t want anyone to die, not even you. Nor do I want a ruined economy, as my income and that of all of my family members depends on a healthy economy. You are slowly, but accelerating, into an ignorance induced insanity. Seek help.
Sorry Mar, my statement was a trick. Those are Trump’s words.
Yeah, jjf, I remember it, but so what?
I tend to believe him, though the bragging I could do without.
And still, jjf, you have not named a liberal who would do a better than President Trump right now.
So, he must be pretty smart.
Le Roi would do a better job. Are you happy yet? Did I jump high enough to get a banana pellet or a Dilly Bar?
No doubt, jjf. As would you.
Jiffy still doesn’t understand Occam’s Razor.
The ChiComs–who are intent on crushing the USA–have a variety of biological weapons in their Level Four facility in Wuhan.
Suddenly, one of the biological agents is brought into the USA by Chinese nationals, as they did in Italy and Iran. It spreads throughout Europe and the Middle East and all across the USA. Hysteria ensued, and the hysteria caused the US economy to enter a tailspin, with DOW down 30% or so in 5 weeks, and mass unemployment among the travel/leisure industries, straining the welfare resources of the country. Health resources are likely to be seriously smacked, too, and many manufacturing businesses–the “Big 3” for example, have shut down, imperiling their supply-chain dependents.
All these results were easily predicable by anyone who studied the US over the last 60 years or so, as have the Chinese Communists.
But it is certainly NOT a “weapon.” Eminent Prominent People have said it is not, so that’s that. Why, even the British have said that, so it must be true. After all, MI-6 wouldn’t try to overthrow a sitting US President, would it?
Only the blind will not see what is in front of their faces, and being deliberately blind………well……….that’s Jiffster.
Stupidity jjf is your strong point.
Intelligence is your low point.
I’ve looked your posts the last few days, jjf, and not once did you offer an intelligent comment.
You just have been trolling around.
Maybe someday, you will offer an intelligent comment on something. But that probably won’t happen until Unicorns roam the earth.
The simplest explanation is that it’s a Chinese weapon? What good is a virus that encompasses the Earth, that does not discriminate between friend and foe? That would wipe out demand for your own products?
Your understanding of Communism is stunted, if you have any at all. They do not give a rip about any life at all (except their own)–so “indiscriminate killing” is no biggie. Mao killed 80 million Chinese subjects during his reign, after all.
And “less income”? To whom? The peasants, or the Ruling Class? The peasants will get the short end of the deal, Jiffy. Ask any Cuban.
It’s not “conspiracy” to think that the ChiComs used this as a weapon–in fact, there’s no way to DIS-prove that theory. It’s just as good a theory as “Whoops!! A bat-eater started it!!”
Okay. dad29 touched on it already and I am not sure I am in the Occam’s razor camp on it, but I do find it an inconvenient truth that almost every new influenza strain came specifically out of China. Why is that? Are the people there just better at developing random new sicknesses? Then why hasn’t this happened throughout history? The Mongols should have wiped out Europe with its illnesses like our founding fathers wiped out the Indians in the Americas.
You don’t remember that over the last several decades the Chinese forced their people to have one child or less to bring down their population? That they are constantly guilty of inhumane treatment of their own people? Look up something called Organ tourism.
A really bad pandemic would wipe out about 1/10th of 1% of the population. Not really enough to topple economies…unless the enemy did something like we are doing. Then if their people are the only ones forced to work through it, they will have the only goods to sell.
“There’s no way to dis-prove it.” Wow, which Catholic teacher taught you that sort of logic?
These are animal-hosted viruses. These are natural mutations.
Even if we take your fever-dream as gospel, you have a plan for outwitting the next one they make? More ammo?
But if I said it was Leprechauns who made it… well, you can’t DIS-prove that, right?
jjf:
Be careful here, as natural mutations will lead to evolution, and we can’t have that sort of stuff going around.
Any way you have to prove that? As it began in China, we can only take a Chinese person’s word for that and I am pretty sure we have not heard that from them. No one would ask the question!
“Heya Ambassador, any chance you guys are messing around with germ warfare and these mutated flus are a byproduct?”
I am pretty sure what reaction that question would get world-wide. So with zero evidence and about zero chance of getting any, one thing we can go by is, are their leaders capable of considering doing something like that. And with their record of lack of regard of human life, I believe it can be considered. It does not mean it is a fact by any means, but with each new strain of flu out of China it seems to me that the other side of the coin (coincidence) becomes less and less likely. 1/7 of the world population becoming infected with three of the four named flu viruses in the last 2 decades? You do understand that if you were trying to develop a new strain of influenza, mutating it through other species is the easiest way to go about it, right?
It looks like the rest of that comment was aimed at someone else, so I will leave it unless you preface a new question with ‘Tuerqas’. BTW, thank you for spelling it right. I do dislike it when people put the extra u in it.
FWIW, yes, some of it we heard from the Chinese. But science can do its best to find evidence independently, and we can sequence the RNA in the virus. If they claim it has a reservoir in horseshoe bats that only live in China, what ca we do?
Science can do its best, but without any of the original animals there is little to be learned. They can sequence the RNA, but without the original specimens it would not be possible to tell how the sequence progressed (man-made or natural).
China has shared very little about the virus with the US, including with holding the information that it even existed for weeks.
We do have the virus as it appears in people around the world and we can continue to see any new mutations in its RNA.
So Tuerqas comes up with facts and Jiffy runs sideways.
Would you like an explanation from a biology professor?
Yes, it is an opinion piece. But there are plenty of links to other sources to make this certainly a worthwhile read. Enjoy.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/27/opinion/coronavirus-trump-evangelicals.html?smid=fb-nytopinion&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR2l98AXPs6F5z-C_iVwLnfNyoVDlqZuQOB2rbxqrjQm1EQsd45gjJSLNvE
Found out who gets their news from Facebook. Way to go grampa, keep spreading the social media.
&fbclid=IwAR2l98AXPs6F5z-C_iVwLnfNyoVDlqZuQOB2rbxqrjQm1EQsd45gjJSLNvE
j:
Still struggling with comprehension, eh? Note I used the word “opinion”. You would whine about just about anything.
The thing is that this is not exact science. The liberals will believe one thing and I and others will believe another set of scientists.
Liberals seem to like theory and others like me like facts a d real world experience.
Mar, where do theories come from?
>You would whine about just about anything.
Sorry that’s simply not true. You don’t get to create your own facts.
As proof, I wasn’t the one whining about people OD’ing from taking chloroquine after Trump said he’s heard it might be effective. I think some other dummies were doing that… right?
Jason, here’s an article from Science. Can you find any facts here?
So saying “one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine” is hedging with the word “might” in your book?
Interesting article, but here is my main problem with it (I have others). ‘Cut & paste splicing’ is just one way to modify a viral agent and the most easily traceable, so frankly a stupid way to do it, especially using ‘known efficient paths’ to modify the virus…At least for a Government run program, probably fine for an evil scientist.
Without evidence from the test bats, it can be difficult to impossible to see the migration pattern from bats to humans. Unless, of course, the scientists used obviously traceable methods to migrate the virus. To me that article is an apple being compared to a bucket of oranges.
This can go around and around, of course, if you’re only interested in saying the Chinese did it. They could’ve created it and then used the sneaky method of planting it in bats or pangolins that they knew would make their way to the market. Or maybe it was aliens. Certainly the aliens have more to gain than the Chinese if the humans fail.
I am not interested in just saying the Chinese did it. It could very well be related to the wet markets used throughout the Far East. I am just saying it is getting more and more suspicious with each new and different flu virus all coming from China. 5 of the top 10 most populous countries in the world use wet markets extensively.
Why is it so impossible for you to believe that a belligerent Country to the US could not possibly have consciously contrived or aided the spread of a new virus to its political opponents? It is a dangerous thing to be believing that the whole world is as politically correct as the the West has become. We do not share a world culture with China or India or Indonesia, almost half the population of the world.
Bioweapons are generally not specific. They hurt your own people as much as your enemy. And they can mutate.
The ChiComs have killed 80 million of “their own” people–Uighurs, Mongols, and Chinese. To the concern that ‘they hurt your own people’ Mao responds “Cry me a river.”
But you have your own sun and moon, Jiffy.
So sneaky of them to use such an ineffective weapon! It’s just like the flu! We don’t know the denominator!
I agree with Dad29 on that one. Chinese doctrine clearly delineates that the State is more important than the individual. It is a common theme throughout the majority of oriental nations, whether they believe in the State(like China or NK) or the culture (like Japan). And they know they are still overpopulated in the country of China…bodies they have in abundance.
Actually I seriously agree with what you are clearly being sarcastic about. First of all, ineffective my a$$! That flu will have cost America trillions, not to mention causing more deaths and a much higher percentage of populace death in the US. Second, the flu is an accepted pandemic and has shown it can mutate, so it is a perfect disguise for a bio-weapon. An Anthrax or Tularemia outbreak would not just be suspicious, it would be a conviction of bio-weapons research and attack. And if it mutates in an animal indigenous to an area, the people of that area will be more resistant to it. Their bodies will have some level of pre-exposure and resistance to germs common in the animal.
Lastly, if we knew the common denominators of the flu that well, a vaccine should have come out already. We do not know all of the denominators. If we did, it would not be as effective as it is.
In a cold war environment (no declaration of war by either side), an actual bio-weapon used for killing is not going to be exactly common. A bio-weapon that disrupts an economy…a perfect tool for a cold war.
I don’t believe that this all the case, I just would not discount it out of hand. And if I were responsible for security of the nation, I think it would be egregiously irresponsible to not be considered. One of the 3 things I live by: People judge others after their own hearts. Americans are stupid if they believe that any nation in the Far East believes in the PC culture predominant in the West today, and a belligerent nation could easily take advantage of it.
My sarcasm about the virus being ineffective, and not knowing the denominator – that’s referencing two arguments from the long-ago time of a week or two ago, where people were saying this virus is just like the common cold, and that we can’t estimate death rates without accurately knowing the total number of people who caught it. Both ideas were forwarded as arguments to do little to nothing about it.
Given the existence of natural viruses, and those that behaved the same way long before genetic manipulation was possible – I’d say from parsimony alone it’s OK to be skeptical that the Inscrutable Chinese must be doing this undetectably and on purpose. We heard a lot of the same sorts of arguments during the first Cold War.